30/01/12 - 16h25

Martin Gower-Smith

Martin is an International Trade Adviser at UKTI, working with UK-based businesses to ensure their success in international markets, and encourage the best overseas companies to look to the UK as their global partner of choice.

Background

• Business between Brazil and UK
• Business in São Paulo and Campinas
• Technology in the countryside of São Paulo
• Transportation services in Brazilian cities
• Opportunities for the construction business in Brazil

Interview

Tom Reaoch:

In September we talked about business between the UK and Brazil and I interviewed Martin Gower-Smith and we talked about his then upcoming commercial mission to Brazil. Martin has completed the visit and is now returned to the UK and we’d like to have him here today to update us on that trip.

Martin is an International Trade Adviser at the UK Trade and Investment. The UK Trade and Investment is known as UKTI and works with UK-based businesses to ensure their success in international markets, and also encourages the best overseas companies to look to the UK as their global partner of choice.

So Martin it was a pleasure to actually meet you in person and to share some time in Campinas so I‘d like to thank you again for being part of Talk2Brazil.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Thank you and thank you very much for taking the time to talk to me and show me around Campinas it was really useful.

Tom Reaoch:

No, I think it was mutual because I think in this virtual world I think and part of that pleasure of meeting a person after, I guess we’ve known each other for probably almost two years, I’ve interviewed you a couple of times and we’ve spoken in the meantime so it’s really enjoyable to place not only the face together but to sit down and have a meeting with you and talk about all that we did talk about in a business, sense so that was good.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Yes, that was most useful and Campinas turned out to be quite a surprise to me.

Tom Reaoch:

What struck you most about Campinas, that’s one of the things I like to touch on because when we talked in the previous interview, Campinas was sort of the unknown for you and for the U.K.T.I and again I want to thank you for taking the time and fitting that into your mission and having you come here to see Campinas and meet the people.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Yes, I think the main difference is, or the main surprise for me was how different it was really from São Paulo or Rio. When I first, my other trips have always been to São Paulo and to Rio de Janeiro and this time I had a chance to come to Campinas and also down into Santos for a very fine visit to Santos and I think the striking difference is that they are very, very different from the other two, Rio and São Paulo. Campinas, let’s concentrate on that, was very, a lot lower should I say, in height, I had a vision with Rio and São Paulo everything’s tall, everything’s plus twenty stories, but in Campinas there were tall buildings but not these monsters, there was lots of green space, space between buildings, which was nice, roads you could walk through and walk on and also the amount of business and the activity of business that was there was quite surprising.

Tom Reaoch:

I think one of the points that actually struck me was to your wife’s comment and I‘d like you to repeat that, what her view of Campinas was compared to São Paulo.

Martin Gower-Smith:

I think she basically said, her view was São Paulo was unorganized power; it felt powerful, was powerful but it was unorganized. Once you got to Campinas, her view that it was an organized power, so it was powerful, it felt powerful but there was organization behind it. There wasn’t the feeling of everybody rushing around; following around the place, there was a real organized feeling to the power within the city.

Tom Reaoch:

That’s a good point and as I mentioned most of the business meetings that I’ve had and people that we receive, we tend to concentrate on the business, on the technicalities and many times I think we as business persons we overlook that and sometimes forget the sense of the feeling of a city and I think she really struck an interesting point for all of us, I mentioned that to a number of other business persons after the visit. We all sort of sensed that because we’re here and we’re in the middle of business in Campinas, but it’s good to hear that and talk about that from somebody coming for the first time, so that’s a good impression.

Martin Gower-Smith:

As a city, as you drive into it, as you come in it just has a completely different feel to it, a much more relaxed, from my point of view, it was a lot more relaxed feel, you weren’t constantly worrying about being late to meetings or would something run would something not run, it was all very organized [indistinct].

Tom Reaoch:

Well that’s just one of our advantages here that it is possible to not only organize a number of visits in any given day but for the most part you’ll be successful in having those visits.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Yes, that was definitely the case.

Tom Reaoch:

And we were talking off-line and you were mentioning your challenge of leaving Campinas and getting back into the city of São Paulo and now with all of the weather and a lot of the rain that becomes another problem.

Martin Gower-Smith:

It was fine until we hit the outskirts of São Paulo. We took the bus back from the square in Campinas to the, it just comes on us,…

Tom Reaoch:

Congonhas, right

Martin Gower-Smith:

Congonhas?

Tom Reaoch:

Congonhas Airport.

Martin Gower-Smith:

And the bus turned up within five minute of its due to leave, it was an easy journey but as the rain started to come down and you start to hit the edge of São Paulo then everything started to grind down and we hit the edge of São Paulo and an hour later we arrived at our destination so it was, that was quite a contrast from getting the taxi at the hotel, going to the bus, where we pick the bus up from, took seconds, minutes as opposed to a long journey and then the bus was fine until we hit the edge.

Tom Reaoch:

And then hours of waiting and trying to get somewhere.

Martin Gower-Smith:

That’s correct, it was very slow once we hit, and it was generally every, most of the way it was the same coming into São Paulo once we hit the edge of it.

Tom Reaoch:

Yeah, unfortunately that’s the case in the weekends and it’s not only, when you look at any time of the year that is the case so that is one of the points of attraction, not only for the city of Campinas but for this whole region out here, why many companies are leaving the city of São Paulo and relocating here to the interior of the state whereas you have seen and mentioned we have I would really say top class highway system so the traveling throughout the area and amongst all the different municipalities is rather easy and the interconnection amongst the different cities here makes business not only easy but also generates more business.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Yes.

Tom Reaoch:

And you can see by the number of factories that you have probably noticed even in your trips around here, the new factories coming are being built here in the area.

Martin Gower-Smith:

That would make an awful lot of sense. Also the one thing I didn’t realize until I actually attended and came to Campinas was how close, there are other cities very close, very near and as we were driving around the cross, you were pointing out, “There’s another city over there”, I think it was Americana…

Tom Reaoch:

Yeah, Americana and Valinhos, everything is connected but in a very subtle way.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Yes, so, though you’re coming out from São Paulo on, you were thinking, “Well this is a long way out, I wonder what’s here”, when you get there there’s a whole range of other pockets of cities and things around which I didn’t expect.

Tom Reaoch:

And each one of these cities also has their specialties, Americana that you just mentioned is a, one of the textiles centers here in the region, Indaiatuba which is another city has been a focus for auto parts and the machinery, machinery manufacturing, some of the areas around close to the Campinas, Hortolandia has be the technology for the computer manufacturing so there are certain specialties that also add flavor to each one of these different municipalities.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Yes, but again from a business point of view they’re really quite close.

Tom Reaoch:

Oh yeah, we’re speaking just several miles you know, a few kilometers and you can et from one place to the other, so when I mention you can have several business appointments in the same day, you can have those different business appointments in different municipalities in the same day.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Yes.

Tom Reaoch:

And see a diverse range of companies here, so from a business sense, what’s your take-back from Campinas, what’s your feeling?

Martin Gower-Smith:

My feeling on the business part is there’s an awful lot of opportunity there for both Brazilian companies and mainly for the UK companies as well coming in so there’s a two-way opportunity, but anybody’s who’s looking at Brazil and is still just focusing on São Paulo and Rio really needs to pull their socks up and to move out and to look outside of that because there are an awful lot of opportunities in those places and in Campinas particularly with a number of – the hotel I was in we had Tetra Pak having a conference, there was Pfizer Brazil having a conference, there was some very, very big names who obviously are located near Campinas and in Campinas. There was a very big Japanese company whose name escapes me had a conference. They’re there for a reason and I think [inaudible] a new or medium size UK company, you should definitely have a look outside of those other two cities to see what options there are. The welcome’s extremely good, very friendly from everybody in shops, in meetings, when I came up to the American Chamber, that was a very warm, very nicely put together event and it was just the whole place has a really good feel that you could relax and do business. People should look at it outside and that’s not just British companies but, you know, any American, foreign companies who, should look at, at least pass an eye over it, come and have a look, see the opportunities that are out there because there is an awful lot of really good things going for it.

Tom Reaoch:

No, that’s true and even the second meeting that we had you met several executives as part of the [visitage] group, you can see the diversity of the types of companies and the types of persons here from a business sense.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Yes there was a wide range of companies in that group and again they are, some of them, in talking to you and talking to a couple of them, and some of them come quite a distance to be there, which again was really good. I don’t think, in my own personal point of view if I was going, I’d probably go to London for a meeting on a train or, but I wouldn’t drive and I don’t think I’d, if I was outside São Paulo trying to go to a meeting in São Paulo with some of the distances being spoken about but people were quite happy to do it the other way around and to come out into Campinas knowing that they could get there on time, etc.

Tom Reaoch:

No and then have a pleasant day and you saw the weather was nice and have a good meeting and you know, an informal setting and a relaxing business day; then get back to wherever you’re coming from and you don’t feel tired or worn out.

Martin Gower-Smith:

No, that’s very true, the whole place gears itself to be just a notch down from manic so you’re in a meeting, it’s relaxed, you don’t have to think, “Do I have to cut short now because I’m not going to go where I’m, to get my next meeting” and it is a nice feel to it, a lot more relaxed and obviously the warm climate helps.

Tom Reaoch:

That’s true and now that you’re back in the cold weather so I think you can appreciate that.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Well it’s three degrees outside so, it’s not warm, yeah. That whole feeling, the whole process of the area, you, I walked around, in São Paulo I would never walk anywhere unless I knew or checked that it was safe and in the hotel in Campinas I went for a complete square walk around the block. Couldn’t walk too far obviously because of my foot, but I went for a walk around the block and you didn’t feel threatened, you didn’t feel, “Shall I go down there, shall I turn left, shall I turn right?” It was relaxed and there is obviously crime, there’s crime everywhere in the world but it didn’t, you didn’t feel quite as on-edge as you do in São Paulo or Rio.

Tom Reaoch:

Right, right, well that’s true, you do have to be literally on your toes in São Paulo or Rio when you’re walking around you have to be aware of your environment and aware of who’s around you.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Yes, that’s very – I mean we had an instance in São Paulo when we went out one night and it just started to rain and we, I noticed several restaurants around the hotel and several other restaurants and I went to see if one was open and someone walked up to my wife, very friendly, big smile but, and she was really nice and she recommended some really good restaurant which was fantastic but there was that feel of, “Should I talk to you, shouldn’t I talk to you, I know you’re smiling but…” I get people when I was walking around in Campinas, I went up to them to ask a question and I had a smile back and it was no problem, you didn’t feel you couldn’t ask or they couldn’t approach you.

Tom Reaoch:

But I think it’s the same, I think in all fairness when I go the, when I go into England I think the same thing is also true, when you compare London to the hustle and bustle and when you get out of the city into some of the smaller areas you do get that feeling, so I think it just may be in many countries it’s the same; even in the States, if you get into some of the more – get out of New York City or Miami, you get that comfy zone of people actually looking and smiling at you, so I think that’s the advantage of small.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Definitely.

Tom Reaoch:

And what, Campinas is not small but when you compare it to São Paulo it’s you know, just still a big city, but manageable.

Martin Gower-Smith:

It’s at least a million-plus isn’t it, from memory?

Tom Reaoch:

Right, no, it’s a million inhabitants in the city, in the greater Campinas area which makes up the different municipalities, we have almost three and a half million people here so there are a lot of people here but the thing is as you mentioned it’s more spread out so you don’t feel that concentration.

Martin Gower-Smith:

I was trying to explain it to a company the other day when they said, “Well why did you go to Campinas?” It was, well, yes there’s a, it’s a million people but it’s a million, the way I had explained it here is if you moved [inaudible] South Hampton [inaudible] living all close together in the UK, then that’s the size of the area you’re looking at all within a fairly short distance and suddenly, as you say, it’s not just a million it’s three and a half- plus.

Tom Reaoch:

What we talked about during your visit and we did mention that because I did ask you what were the challenges from you side, not only convincing companies to come on a trade mission but then convincing them to come to a city like Campinas and a couple things you did mention that’s still the mind-set for many companies in the UK, they still sort of lump all of South America together, they still have he fears of hyper-inflation, are those the general concerns?

Martin Gower-Smith:

General concerns, I think a very big mistake which is made not just by companies but by various organizations be them government or trade associations is that Latin America, or South America is a block and you look at it as a block and I think that is a major misconception that when I’m talking about Brazil I will have to not often have people come to me and say, “We’re looking at Brazil as part of Latin America and then we’re going to Argentina and everything from Brazil.” And it’s like woo! It’s a different market, it’s that they speak a different language, there’s different tax regimes, there’s a whole range of things and it’s a bit like, one example I used is they take, say you want to do Moscow so you’re going to start in Spain. You know, well it’s not that far different on the map and it is different from Greece to Italy to Germany and it’s the same sort of thing; that we do have this [in] South America. The inflation fears, they are still ripe, people still turn around to me and say, “Well they’ve got raging inflation.” And I say well, no, it’s not much more now. Do you have high interest rates? But that’s not really an issue but I think it’s the fear and so many people look and think of Brazil and most of Latin America as being as it was ten, fifteen years ago. You can have some very interesting conversations with people who look at you like you’re mad when you try and explain what it’s like and how it’s different and that how poverty has changed. In fact a conversation I had two days ago with someone who was saying, “Well yes, lots of poverty.” Well there is lots of poverty but from when I first came six, seven years ago to now there’s this remarkable change especially in São Paulo, down in Rio it’s got slightly better but São Paulo has got mostly, a lot, lot better…

Tom Reaoch:

No, in fact, from a business sense even with that, with the change from the poverty and with the, call it a better, more sharing of the wealth, that wealth has been transformed into consumption and that’s really what’s fueling the growth in Brazil at the moment because it’s not the rest of the world.

Martin Gower-Smith:

No, it needs to be internal growth and it is internal growth which again then for a UK company will offer opportunities as more people have disposable income more people want to buy goods that they haven’t had, if they’re UK goods or we’re filling the void or wherever they’re coming from that there’s an opportunity because people who’ve lived here a long time on a very low income will, when they have disposable will actually look through and start to change things and buy things. There was an analogy I had the other day which is, it was about democracy in China and I was just talking to someone and he said, “Well, the Chinese people I talk to they say what we want first is [inaudible] a fridge, a car, a stereo, education for our kids and when we we’ve got all of that we’ll start talking about democracy.” And I think that’s a very – you know, there’s lots of opportunities because when people change from one social demographic to another demographic there’s a whole range of processes they go through and that’s where the opportunities come and that’s where in this case as we say you know, for both Brazilian and UK companies [inaudible].

Tom Reaoch:

Well that’s a fair assumption because I’ve been in Brazil since 1970 and I came here when it was a military dictatorship and there was no democracy, and I did live through this transition from a dictatorship to democracy and Brazil in all fairness today is still at the beginning of its adulthood in terms of democracy, but any political system it’s a learning process, obviously if you’re in a dictatorship there’s not a whole lot to learn, you have to learn to be quiet but I think what is striking here is that the Brazilians are learning very quickly how to be a company, how to share the political spectrum and that’s a learning process, not everything’s perfect here, there’s still a lot of problems. One of the things you also mentioned was from the standpoint of Europeans and specifically the English and their outlook towards corruption here and that still is a problem but many of these problems can only be solved over time.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Yes, I mean the corruption side is very much an issue in the UK because we just had our Bribery Act which has been passed, well it came into [inaudible] property in July this year so there’s not the option that certain people or certain companies took in the past that was “Well my agent did that, I had no idea therefore I can’t be held accountable.” You’re accountable across the world as a UK company now so if someone in your [team] or back office in Honk Kong or São Paulo gives someone a brown envelope to say well, you know, “We want this deal done,” the ND (ph) in the city of London office or wherever it is in Beijing so it’s just as comparable so that’s the change, big change in the UK with the Bribery Act which is really, not stopping business but it’s making people double think and think again as to what…

Tom Reaoch:

Yeah because they become responsible and you share that responsibility or become liable for what’s happening so…

Martin Gower-Smith:

Yeah, and so that comes down so in a market like Brazil where there are issues, there will be times when it will just be, “Well we’re sorry, we cannot do that.” That’s a major sort of [inaudible] changes and the same act now applies to local American corpora… or the U.S. – I think we inherited most of it from the US. It’s not going to be a joker but it’s going to make people more aware of what they’re doing.

Tom Reaoch:

Right, at least think twice.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Exactly and I think the other issue, I think I mentioned it to you when I was over, is one thing we really need either between GB and Brazil or EU and Brazil – and it’s the tax of course that’s causing the problems – is a double taxation treaty because one of the issues that the UK company had setting up is that they can set up in Campinas which is excellent and then they can be double-taxed back in the UK and in Brazil for the same money in effect [indistinct] again, and we have now, we didn’t have a double taxation agreement with China we have one with India so it’s a key to sort of move that trade forward.

Tom Reaoch:

So that again becomes one of the barriers then so…

Martin Gower-Smith:

It’s a barrier, it’s not insurmountable because if you’re taking the longer term view, which is the thing I say to all of my clients, if you’re looking at Brazil as a five to ten year strategy as opposed to a two to three year profit strategy then by the time you – that becomes a major issue – you would have established there, you would have, you know you can keep reinvested in the market, it’s just an issue that you have to be very aware of how you structure it and you take good legal advice and you can’t, like we could in France, we just turn up in France and worry about the tax later; the tax man sorts it all out, well, if you did that in Brazil, the tax man would sort it out but you wouldn’t like the answer.

Tom Reaoch:

Good story, that’s true, we [indistinct[ be surprised about the answer.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Yes, so that’s why it’s just to take it from both sides, you need to have your UK advice and your Brazilian advice when you’re setting up to make sure you do get that structure totally right so that you don’t end up making lots and lots of money just for two respective tax authorities.

Tom Reaoch:

But again from what you’ve just said not only on the tax but the other things you mentioned, from a standpoint of Brazilian companies and the country itself and again the city of Campinas, companies and cities need to sell themselves better.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Yes.

Tom Reaoch:

Because part of what you just said, and it’s the impressions if you’re talking about the inflation or the fact of the democracy that you noted and even the cost of double- taxation, so Brazilian companies need to sell themselves better to attract more business and attract more companies.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Equally yes, and on a two-way, if they’re looking at the UK the reverse would apply to them. If you have a Campinas company, I’ve spoke to a couple who are looking – which way are we, west, no east; east towards us, had to think for a minute there and towards us and maybe Germany, you know, they have to look at these things as well because without the agreements they will have, without the double-taxation they have to structure their structure in the UK or Germany or wherever correctly to minimize the double taxation issue. The same if they’re used to a certain business practice in Brazil it could implement a lot of trouble in the UK, so it’s a two-way street on the research side. We look at Brazil and our companies coming out, but the Brazilians coming in after, we’re just as careful.

Tom Reaoch:

I’ve found that even after our, your visit here and other missions that have come here that I’ve been part of, when I talk to other business persons here in Brazil, the general feeling is that, that literally everybody’s coming here beating on the doors of Brazil looking for business, but I also try to share with our Brazilian listeners and the Brazilian companies that that’s really not the case, there are companies coming, there are opportunities but there still is a lot of concern out there across the board and more companies could be coming, but as you mentioned it just might be easier or better to go to China or India because there are advantages, there are opportunities and from the cost structure logistics what have you, those may be better investments.

Martin Gower-Smith:

That’s very true, they could be. I think it’s really down to the research you do on any market before you go into it. I think companies who looked at and invested heavily into Greece, as an example, would probably be looking at it now and saying, “Why did we bother because there’s not a lot of profit in it anymore, we’re not selling anything, we’re pulling out” or whatever. So the research is key, there’s always the, what you call PEST, political, economical, social, and terrorist threats, that could impinge – I mean India was going great guns for a long time and then you had the big problem with the bombings and the shootings, it’s still going on but suddenly people said, “Well hang on, it’s not as safe as we thought,” so there’s always those risks and I think it’s really down to the research side you do from both sides of looking and making sure you’re prepared before you go to any market, but I don’t think, I wouldn’t…

Tom Reaoch:

That’s fair, and I agree with you and I think right after you went back, well the week you were here there was also in the news a lot of the information and press about the Euro-block, we’re talking about the blocks, the Euro-zone from a Brazilian perspective when you look out and see what Europe is all about today, that has become a concern now. What is your impression after, you were here as some of the things started now you got back, what is the general business climate in the UK right now?

Martin Gower-Smith:

The climate is, I think we can probably describe it as slow. I think the big concern everyone has at the moment is fear and there’s nothing more delimiting than fear…

Tom Reaoch:

The fear is corrosive.

Martin Gower-Smith:

The fear of fear is almost as bad as actually the event happening, what happens, we saw it with, in 2008 with the banking crash, the fear was crash by the time it all happened the stock markets dusted down, everybody picked themselves up and carried on and I think the general feeling over here from talking to colleagues and business companies I work with is the fact that there’s no real, they’re still going on, there’s no decision in Europe, there’s been these several treaties, several bail-out packages, a range of options and then the market recovers, then four weeks later they’re back in the news, there’s more things going on. That’s probably at the moment the biggest slowdown on the economy is people are just saying, “I’m hanging on.”

Tom Reaoch:

Wait and see, right?

Martin Gower-Smith:

Yeah, if I’m a consumer I’m not necessarily going to fo and spend now, I’m going to wait. If I’m a manufacturer looking to invest into new kit, new plant; it’s the same thing, I’ll wait, so even though the order books have been ticking up, the figures have been looking good for the last six or seven months most of them, the companies there are now saying, “Well I’ve got a good balance sheet but I’m not going to touch that yet” and I think that’s – if you look around at most of the large and probably medium sized SME’s they had money in the bank, they have money to invest either in staff, kit, new equipment, but all the time there’s this fear factor, then people are going, “Well, I’m not going to do anything, I’m going to wait” and it’s the consumers as well. It’s across the board at the moment and that’s I think is, there is still economic opportunities here, there will be economic growth but we need some kind of closure on Europe, which ever that turns out to be which I wouldn’t, never like to predict, but we need some kind of closure so that everybody can dust off and say, “Right, we’ll start again.” We have two or three years now or five years where we’re not going to have any sizeable issues.

Tom Reaoch:

And get on the shop door and turn the sign say, open for business again, right?

Martin Gower-Smith:

Open for business which is the UK catch phrase, we are open for business but it’s a question of trying to get companies making decisions, the shoppers making decisions. I went to one of my major shopping areas near us which we did this time last year up in Salisbury and [indistinct] and we drove in and last year we were literally in the [inaudible] of the Park and Ride car park a mile and a half from the city because all of the city center was chalker (ph). This year, three car parks had four hundred spaces each in.

Tom Reaoch:

So that’s the sign.

Martin Gower-Smith:

That’s the sign, and [that’s before] Christmas, everyone’s been paid and every shop had a sale on and so there are shopping centers which will be heating, but which we believe are the big but some of your smaller cities, I mean I’m not sure of the population of Salisbury but it must be fairly similar, it’s probably about half a million so it’s not quite the Campinas size, but it’s close to Southampton, it’s close to some very big shopping areas and areas where people come to, to go to Salisbury to shop and it was very quiet and I think that’s a fear, that’s fear doing that, there’s no real reason why people can’t go out and spend their money, there are people who are losing their jobs and it may be redundant, that’s true but, you know that’s the situation here…

Tom Reaoch:

But that’s always the case, you know things happen and you know, always happen so things go up, things go down but also for business persons this is also the chance for an opportunity.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Oh definitely.

Tom Reaoch:

Now there’s a stopping and waiting to see those who get up and go can take advantage and be up and running because when things do turn around business will be back.

Martin Gower-Smith:

That’s why I think an awful lot of the companies who are out there doing things at the moment are taking that longer term view. People starting businesses, I can think of a couple of people who’ve just set up their own business in various things and it’s a good time to start as you say because if you’re there afterwards when it all, when the economy picks up, things take off again, then you’ll be able to track record. I’ve spoken to shops; I’ve been to places, to companies when I’m buying things, “Okay, so how long have you been trading?” “Well I’ve been trading four or five years” so that means you’ve survived the crunch, you’ve survived the down-turn in the economy, you’re still here, you’re still in the same premises, I’m reasonably sure you’re going to be around next two weeks or three weeks or next year when their piece of kit needs servicing. If you just started six months ago, [makes ‘unsure’ noises] yes, I’ll give you a go but I don’t quite have the confidence. So you know if you’ve survived through these areas, if you set a business up now, two years down the line when it’s booming, you’ve been through a hard time then you hopefully as a business person and a consumer you can look a that company and say well they survived that, so hopefully they won’t over-trade through the [inaudible].

Tom Reaoch:

But I want to take one thing on your, you’re also the specialist for sports infrastructure and we’ve spoken about that before and we’ve spoken about that while you were here and the Olympics, the upcoming Olympics what that means in terms of business there, but also here in Brazil, the World Cup and the Olympics and looking further down the road there’s still a whole lot of business to be had, there’s a lot on the table, there’s a lot of investment, a lot of money to be made just looking at these, not only as sporting events but all the infrastructure, the business that comes with it.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Yes, there’s an awful lot of opportunities in Brazil particularly, still in the UK but we’re running what now, just short of six, eight months, nine months till the gum goes so to speak and it will start so the construction, infrastructure type opportunities have all happened here, but there are an awful lot of opportunities in the whole of Brazil especially 2014, not just Rio 2016 with the opportunities for construction, infrastructure, trains, I know there’s quite a few missions planned either way for airports, railways, a whole range of things which Brazil still has a wealth of opportunities to offer and fortunately as from the UK side, we have a wealth of expertise and real-life experience to bring in because we’re just in the last eight months of finishing it off.

Tom Reaoch:

No, I think that’s it that’s where the know-how and the technology comes in; instead of re-inventing the wheel, taking advantage of what has been learned. You mentioned a couple of the new products and the temporary installations for venues.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Yes.

Tom Reaoch:

So those are things that somebody’s developed something for a very specific use and that technology or that product could easily be transferred to a place like Brazil.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Oh very easy, I’ve spoken to the company when I got back and I’ve had a chat, we’ve got meetings in the new year to discuss how we move this forward, so I would not be surprised if I didn’t see them in Brazil within six months. Any company in my feeling looking at what happened with 2012 and the way the opportunities came out through there, is you have to be in the ball park early.

Tom Reaoch:

Right, no, I was impressed, one of our meetings, one of the persons that we met with at the American Chamber while you were here, Marcelo Schneider (ph) who’s part of the municipal government and he’s working on the opportunities looking forward to the World Cup and the Olympics, I was surprised when he mentioned the number of sports delegations that have already visited Campinas and other delegations that will be coming very shortly that are in the midst of evaluating the city for, to use it as the training venue. That was a surprise to me because you still think these things are further down the road, these things happen next year or two years from now, but he said, no you know, the one right after another they’ve been here, they’ve been looking, they’re going through their checklists organizing themselves so I think the wake-up call is now.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Oh definitely, it is for either Brazilian companies looking to profit from the World Cup and the Olympics and for overseas companies looking to bring their expertise, it will happen. The building phase, especially for the Olympics will start fairly shortly if there’s new stadiums and things to be built, there’s a long lead time on these particular issues and the training camp side as I said in the meeting we, the southeast has most training camps and [inaudible] anywhere else in the UK, a whole range of them, they do need some (ph), there’s several issues behind the training camp and you do not want to be necessarily in the middle of the hustle-bustle of the big city, it’s suits to be outside, it suits to be in a nice area where your athletes can run and train and not get pestered by people all of the time.

Tom Reaoch:

Breathe clean air.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Exactly, that’s a definite. Also the spin-off of the other sports that will, the athletics and the swimmers and maybe the footballers and who will be the big tickets in town initially but you’ve got the archery, you’ve got the equestrian, the horse riding, which is another big ticket, but you’ve got lots of smaller sports, the judo, the taekwondo, all those type of things that are in the Olympics; the boxing, which people don’t think about but they all need venues, they all need training camps and they all preferably like them in nice places and relaxed places and a good training environment – the training environment is slightly different than what you would require out of a business.

Tom Reaoch:

No, it’s amazing, in yesterday’s paper I was reading here there was a, some of the things you really don’t think about but when you see the number it impacts you. Just for the opening, regarding now the World Cup and the opening and the final game, they expect the city that will hold that event on that day will receive upwards of a thousand flights of corporate jets of just bringing in different delegations and dignitaries but also from the marketing and the merchandising side, so you have a thousand airplanes will be landing that have nothing to do with the commercial landings and that was one of the issues – there’s so many private jets who could be flying here where are they going to land?

Martin Gower-Smith:

In the UK – just as an aside – that is one of the areas now that we have several, I can think of Biggin Hill, Farnborough, which are airports in their own right purely executive, they are purely private jets, there’s never a commercial flight out with them anymore and I think that will be – I saw a couple of planes taking off from around and I think one of those have got an ideal opportunity within Campinas to actually step up to the plate and say, “Okay we can take corporate jets.” In the UK there are quite a few little corporate airports now, [inaudible].

Tom Reaoch:

No, it’s one thing to take corporate jets it’s another thing to take a thousand corporate jets on one day.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Need a good [inaudible] piece of management software, I guess. Something to remind them [indistinct], and the other thing is of course they’re all going to try and get in for, if the kick-off’s at 3:00 they’re all going to want to land about 2:00 or 1:00 or whatever.

Tom Reaoch:

Yeah, 1:00 and then get out at 5:00 and that’s going to be it.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Exactly, so there will be logistics but…

Tom Reaoch:

They’ll be queuing up and waiting till Monday to take off so…

Martin Gower-Smith:

People who fly corporate jets tend not to do that. They don’t do the waiting bit, but again that’s just part of the logistics that has to be looked at as tight as, as these things get closer more and more people who are looking at the market and looking within the organization of the World Cup and the Olympics, some will go, “Now where are we going to put these planes?” And then hopefully someone will turn around in Brazil and find an answer to the solution, no, the solution to the answer even.

Tom Reaoch:

Well Martin as you look out into 2012 what is your feeling for business and what is your feeling for business between the UK and Brazil, and again missions, are you planning or will you plan more missions to Brazil?

Martin Gower-Smith:

I would imagine, well I will definitely be planning another mission next year. I know from other people within the UK [inaudible] structure and the various other trade associations there are a number of missions penciled in for – our financial year starts April, so from April onwards there’s several still coming out from this year as far as we’re concerned financially from and there’s one from the northeast and east midlands, they’re [inaudible] now – but there’s more missions penciled in from April the 1st onwards and I think business-wise we will grow stronger and between Brazil and the UK we’ll continue to expand and grow. I think the opportunities between the two countries are immense both ways, in fact I was just doing some Amazon shopping before I picked the phone up and I typed in Brazil in Amazon and I got a range of different hair-care products coming straight out of Brazil, which I can buy so there’s a two-way street. We saw, ah, I can’t remember the name of the drink now, is it Gant – Ganatica (ph)? The really nice fruit drink? I drink and that was in White Rose. Last Monday we were around White Rose which is one of our big supermarket chains, it’s not as big as the main Tesco’s and Wal-Mart but it’s a specialist, good retail shop and there was a can actually on the shelf there being sold and my wife and I looked at it and went, “Ah” . I’ve got some in my fridge for the summer but not for the winter. There’s a two-way opportunity here and I think it’s going to be a tricky 2012 but there will be opportunities and you’ve just got to keep your eyes open and keep looking.

Tom Reaoch:

So you don’t feel the world’s going to roll up the carpet and call it quits?

Martin Gower-Smith:

I don’t think that will happen.

Tom Reaoch:

And specifically in the UK there will be a lot of business so there’ll be a lot of companies looking out into the world not only for business but also expecting – that’s the reverse, for Brazilian companies to establish themselves in the UK; there are also opportunities.

Martin Gower-Smith:

There’s a lot of opportunities and coming back to our conversation earlier with the companies who survived, the companies who build during a recession, a company coming in to – a Brazilian company may be looking to locate in the UK, they’ve got a range of potential advantages, there is various enterprise zones that we [inaudible] set up which have rate, business rate reductions, commercial property is well off the high of six or seven years ago so you can rent factory space, you can rent or buy commercial property reasonably priced now as opposed to the city prices it was before. Again, it’s an opportunity to look at the UK and to look at where you want to be in the UK as a Brazilian company and to use it maybe to go into to Europe and to look at that and there are, there’s assistance in certain places for people just so that they establish businesses in the UK so it’s something, if I was a Brazilian company as well as looking to go to Brazil as a UK company, are there opportunities back here? Definitely, and we are seeing people and Brazilian companies setting up over here and I think as time goes on…

Tom Reaoch:

You get more and more.

Martin Gower-Smith:

And it’s a good time to do it I think from the UK point of view, if you’re looking to invest in the UK now is a very good time.

Tom Reaoch:

Now’s the time.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Well you’re not getting in at the top of all the markets. You can buy a house reasonably, you can buy a commercial property reasonably, you can travel around fairly reasonably and the currency’s not as strong as it has been I the past but it’s not as weak as it has been so there’s a bit of a trade of there which will help and the Real is fairly strong still so it’s not an expensive to get in here.

Tom Reaoch:

Good, so a lot to do and a lot to look forward to in 2012.

Martin Gower-Smith:

Yes.

Tom Reaoch:

Well, Martin I want to thank you again because we’re running to the end four time but I want to leave on that positive note that there is business both ways and I do hope to see you again if you do come down on another mission, and certainly would like to have another opportunity to talk to you.

Martin Gower-Smith:

That would absolutely be fine, no, and when I’m next into Brazil I will definitely be pitching the phone and if you’re in the UK give me a shout and let me know.

Tom Reaoch:

We will, okay?

Martin Gower-Smith:

Okay. .

Tom Reaoch:

So thank you again and best to your wife.

Martin Gower-Smith:

And thank you again and have a happy prosperous new year.

Tom Reaoch:

And for all of you, okay?

Martin Gower-Smith:

Thank you, thank you Tom, take care.